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Monday, November 12, 2012

King Sejong Ordered Comfort Women for His Troops

http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=309
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=309&cpage=1#comments

King Sejong Ordered Comfort Women for His Troops
August 13th, 2006Gerry-Bevers
I was researching another topic when I came across the following record in the Annals of King Sejong that I thought was interesting:

傳旨咸吉道監司曰:

古者邊鎭置娼妓, 以待軍士之無妻者, 其來尙矣。 今者邊鎭州郡, 亦置官妓, 以待行客, 況道內慶源、會寧、鏡城等邑, 本國巨鎭, 居北極邊, 戍禦軍士, 遠離家室, 再經寒暑, 日用細事, 亦且難矣。 設妓女以待士卒, 庶合事宜.

함길도 감사에게 전지하기를,

“옛날에 변진(邊鎭)에 창기(娼妓)를 두어 군사들의 아내 없는 사람들을 접대하게 하였는데, 그 유래가 오래 되었다. 지금도 변진과 주군(州郡)에 또한 관기를 두어 행객을 접대하게 하는데, 더군다나 도내의 경원·회령·경성 등의 읍은 본국의 큰 진영으로 북쪽 변방에 있는데, 수자리 사는 군사들이 가정을 멀리 떠나서 추위와 더위를 두 번씩이나 지나므로, 일용(日用)의 잗단 일도 또한 어렵게 될 것이니, 기녀를 두어 사졸들을 접대하게 함이 거의 사의(事宜)에 합할 것이다.”

(The King) sent the following instructions to the Governor of Hangil Province:

“In the past, prostitutes were sent to camps on the frontier to service soldiers without wives. It had a long history. Even now government giseangs are stationed at frontier camps and administrative posts to service travellers. Moreover, on the northern frontier we have large camps, including Gyeongwon, Hoiryeong, and Gyeonseong, which are in your province. Troops guarding the frontier are far from their families and must endure two (years) of cold and heat, making their daily duties even more difficult; therefore, I think it is appropriate to station prostitutes to service the troops.


Link to the text세종 75권, 18년(1436 병진 / 명 정통(正統) 1년) 12월 17일(무인) 2번째기사
북방에 기녀를 두어 군사들을 접대하게 하다


함길도 감사에게 전지하기를,
“옛날에 변진(邊鎭)에 창기(娼妓)를 두어 군사들의 아내 없는 사람들을 접대하게 하였는데, 그 유래가 오래 되었다. 지금도 변진과 주군(州郡)에 또한 관기를 두어 행객을 접대하게 하는데, 더군다나 도내의 경원·회령·경성 등의 읍은 본국의 큰 진영으로 북쪽 변방에 있는데, 수자리 사는 군사들이 가정을 멀리 떠나서 추위와 더위를 두 번씩이나 지나므로, 일용(日用)의 잗단 일도 또한 어렵게 될 것이니, 기녀를 두어 사졸들을 접대하게 함이 거의 사의(事宜)에 합할 것이다.”
하였다.
【태백산사고본】
【영인본】 4책 44면
【분류】 *군사-휼병(恤兵) / *신분-천인(賤人)


























James


August 13th, 2006 at 08:38 | #1


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Interesting post, Gerry.


Have you heard about South Korean troops forcing Vietnamese women into sexual slavery during the Vietnam War?


http://www.thanhniennews.com/society/?catid=3&newsid=13820






seouldout


August 13th, 2006 at 09:18 | #2


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Man, this blog digs up great stuff; keep up the good work.


Several years ago I read about Korean women, many of them wives of Korean soldiers, setting up whorehouses in Vietnam during the war. They were pimping the locals. For a Korean to get a passport and permission to travel overseas prior to the ’88 Olympics was quite difficult, and those who were granted permission had to further some national goal, ex. advanced education or bringing dollars back to Korea. Need one wonder how complicit the Korean government was in the sex trade by allowing these women to travel to Vietnam?






ponta


August 13th, 2006 at 09:19 | #3


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Geery’s post comfirms the following.


As a vassal state of the Yuan Dynasty after the Koryo Kingdom surrendered to the Mongols in 1257, hundreds of women were demanded to serve the sexual needs of envoys. Girls aged 13 to 16 were forbidden from marrying so that a different girl could be found to attend them almost every night.Korea times






wjk


August 13th, 2006 at 18:20 | #4


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Gerry, those aren’t comfort women. Well, as we understand them (not YOU), those aren’t comfort women. 1st, the women you described are professional prostitutes. 2nd, the women you described were receiving fellow Korean men. 3rd, there is nothing to hint that they received more than 20 men a day, like they were sex machines. 4th, I suppose these women didn’t have a military doctor get involved if and when there was a pregnancy. Give it a rest, Gerry. Interesting dig, though. And, according to my friend who served in the US armed forces anyway, there seem to be abundant opportunities to sleep with women around the US homeland bases. Go figure.






Gerry-Bevers


August 13th, 2006 at 19:06 | #5


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Wjk,


King Sejong ordered that women be sent to the front line camps to service the troops, which is the same thing the Japanese did. The king called them “prostitutes,” but so did the Japanese.


We do not know how many men King Sejong’s “prostitutes” serviced, but as the record said, the camps on the frontier were large, so it would have required a large number of prostitutes.Were there that many “professional prostitutes” running around? And of those how many were willing to risk the dangers of the frontier? What if there were not enough women to fill the quota? Can’t you see the potential for abuse? Of course, Korea was still a slave society back then, so maybe it did not matter?


Would it really matter to the woman if the line of soldiers she was servicing was Korean, Japanese, or even American?






wjk


August 13th, 2006 at 19:31 | #6


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Gerry, King Sejong’s troops were in Korea, not some other country, like where the Japanese took them.


Would it really matter to the woman if the soliders were Korean or Japanese? Incredibily enough, probably YES.


One, It’s back in the day, but the Koreans would probably let the baby live to see birth.


Two, supposedly WieAnBu Jung Shin Dae were patriotically servicing the Japanese soldiers and lovingly provided sex, to encourage the front line troops who were fighting for them and their country. The Japanese Empire was simply not their country. I wonder why there was a shortage of Japanese women to fulfill this patriotic duty, whereas Korean women could found in frontlines in China, southern IndoChina, Pacific Islands, the Phillippines, etc.


Three, sometimes soliders marry the ones they had in military camps. I could see this happening between UNMARRIED Korean military men (See Sejong’s decree that you typed up) and those Korean women who were selling their bodies. To the Japanese, these Korean women were somewhat like what white people in the US South viewed black women in the US South.






Mika


August 13th, 2006 at 20:23 | #7


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Three, sometimes soliders marry the ones they had in military camps. I could see this happening between UNMARRIED Korean military men (See Sejong’s decree that you typed up) and those Korean women who were selling their bodies. To the Japanese, these Korean women were somewhat like what white people in the US South viewed black women in the US South.


You are just wrong. The 1944 US Army report about Korean comfort women says “there were numerous instances of proposals of marriage and in certain cases marriages actually took place.”






Matt


August 13th, 2006 at 20:24 | #8


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Would it really matter to the woman if the soliders were Korean or Japanese? Incredibily enough, probably YES.


wjk, I am not going to buy the argument that Korean prosititutes will not have sex with Japanese or other foreigners. I have heard the argument before in relation to ‘comfort women’, that Korean women could never willingly prostitute themselves to Japanese. Of course, to believe that you need to close you eyes to things like this.


What Gerry’s post tells me is that Korea had a previous history of prostitution and camp followers (종군위안부) before the Japanese came to control Korea. On Korea’s side it is often claimed that prostitution did not exist, or if it did, not this type of prostitution, therefore every single comfort woman was forced to do the job.


I am willing to believe that some were decieved as it is obvious that the system was bound to be abused, but it is clear that most knew what they were getting into when they signed thier contracts (many were even prositutes before they signed up).






GarlicBreath


August 13th, 2006 at 21:27 | #9


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WJK said:


1st, the women you described are professional prostitutes. 2nd, the women you described were receiving fellow Korean men. 3rd, there is nothing to hint that they received more than 20 men a day, like they were sex machines. 4th, I suppose these women didn’t have a military doctor get involved if and when there was a pregnancy


It sounds by your own words WKJ that you don’t approve of “race mixing “, at least not when Korean prostitutes are concerned. I wonder in what circumstances you would approve of Korean women being with non Korean men. If a Korean prostitute cannot be with a non Korean man, who can WKJ?


Sejong practice of sending women prostitues is at least an improvement from the silla tradition of providing “young flower boys ” or hwarung for the soldiers sexual satisfaction.


One of the best-known homosexual histories is the Hwarang or Flower Boy, the story of a homoerotic military elite


http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/IES/southkorea.html


Four points about the ‘comfort women’


1) Most were already prostitutes

2) they got paid good money.

3) They were treated better by the Japanese then the Koreans.

4) it was only when (some) were abandoned by their own families, as they got older did they make up stories that they were kidnapped at 10 years or and got raped 50 X a day for the duration of the war.






wjk


August 13th, 2006 at 21:28 | #10


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Mika, I read that report, too, and it seems to be a regional report, but if true, I guess the same report suggests that the soldiers proposed to unattractive (“by Japanese or Caucasian standards”), immature, selfish girls. Why do you think that report is 100% correct anyway?


Same to you, Matt, why do you have so much faith in that report?


And, I think the Sejong type up strongly suggests that these prostitutes were to serve Korean men, as Korean women, for UNMARRIED men. I don’t see anything there that suggests officers were allowed to pay a first visit to virgins, visit 7 times a day, etc.


Also, what prostitute would receive money to face men and get raped 40 times a day, to have her female organs phsycially damaged?


I think normal prostitutes don’t get raped, most of the time anyway.


You know what? I’d like to meet the Japanese prostitute who served in WieAnBu, and settled via marriage with her Japanese solider husband somewhere in the non Japanese isle frontlines, and came back to Japan after the war defeat. Far fetched, eh?






wjk


August 13th, 2006 at 21:35 | #11


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Garlic Breath, you and I hold fundamentally different beliefs about what was a comfort woman to begin with. The report you have faith in has an interesting contradiction in itself, that suggest these Japanese war boys proposed to unattractive, uneducated, social outcasts. I guess in war time, you don’t round up pretty women to service the Japanese boys, but round up ugly volunteer prostitutes. Interesting isn’t it?


Based on my belief of what was a comfort woman, a fellow Korean man would treat the prostitute the same way he treats a prostitute around South Korean military bases around South Korea. None of that 40 times raping a day, enough to cause permanent damage.


Because we have fundamental differences in beliefs, let’s stop writing about this subject.


Interesting dig, Gerry, but all I get from it is, King Sejong wanted the military to provide nothing much different from what South Korean and US military bases do today. Not at all the same as what I (and not YOU) believe was WieAnBu.






wjk


August 13th, 2006 at 21:42 | #12


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and, Garlic Breath, I think you can document some corpulent rich aristocrat getting into ramming his penis into some young boy’s ass not only in relatively peaceful and warfree Korea’s Shilla (post betraying fellow Korean nations via Tang’s help), but also in Rome, Greece, Persia, etc. If you were leaning towards shock value, I’m sorry to say, I wasn’t shocked.






ponta


August 13th, 2006 at 22:42 | #13


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Also, what prostitute would receive money to face men and get raped 40 times a day, to have her female organs phsycially damaged?


what prosititute are you talking about? Prosititute around American town?


linkKorea had to pay tribute to Monglue. For instance, she had to send virgin.


Kaesen were mostly slave prostitute as against comnon belief that they were just entertainer.

link


Prostitution has been a component of Korean culture for literally thousands of years, and any attempt to eliminate this still viable cultural artifact will not succeed if it does not address the demand for sex services within South Korean society.


Asia Times






Matt


August 13th, 2006 at 22:44 | #14


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Mika, I read that report, too, and it seems to be a regional report, but if true, I guess the same report suggests that the soldiers proposed to unattractive (”by Japanese or Caucasian standards”), immature, selfish girls. Why do you think that report is 100% correct anyway?


Same to you, Matt, why do you have so much faith in that report?


Because the report is based on contemporary interviews from comfort women by US intelligence officers instructed to give a report about it. The report was an internal report and does not seem to have been written with any particular bias. So yes, I put a lot more faith in this 1944 US Army report than I do in wjk’s ‘beliefs’ in 2006.






bad_moon_rising


August 14th, 2006 at 02:09 | #15


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I wonder why there was a shortage of Japanese women to fulfill this patriotic duty, whereas Korean women could found in frontlines in China, southern IndoChina, Pacific Islands, the Phillippines, etc.


wjk appears unable to comprehend that any Korean woman would willingly work as a prostitute outside of Korea. Yet how would wjk account for the disproportionate number of Korean women working in the United States as prostitutes? According to an article by JoongAng Dailyhttp://joongangdaily.joins.com/200606/20/200606202215525039900090409041.html:


The report said Los Angeles police estimate that there are 8,000 Korean prostitutes working in that city and its suburbs. Many of those Koreans, the report said, entered the United States through Mexico or Canada. Koreans can travel to Canada without a visa, and the long, undefended border makes it relatively easy for someone to slip across.



A Los Angeles police spokesman said that about 90 percent of the department’s 70-80 monthly arrests for prostitution involve Korean women.


90% of the arrests for prostitution in Los Angeles involve Korean women! I very much doubt most of the “customers” these Korean women service are Koreans. How unpatriotitc of them. Might the very reason for so many Koreans working as prostitutes during WWII be the same reason Korean women are working as prostitutes in disproportionate numbers in the United States now?


WJK also stated that:


To the Japanese, these Korean women were somewhat like what white people in the US South viewed black women in the US South.


Yet where is the evidence backing up your claim as to what Japanese thought of the Korean women? Do you have any diaries or articles by Japanese expressing animosity toward Korean women working as prostitutes? On the other hand according to the JoongAng Daily article not everyone in the United States loves Korean women.


some prostitutes reportedly work from their apartments, stimulating anti-Korean sentiment. An official here said some Korean woman have found it difficult to find apartments to rent.






lirelou


August 14th, 2006 at 02:37 | #16


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Reference James comment (#1). The Thanh Nien article merely states that an NGO from Korea was in Central Vietnam investigating such claims. Prostitution in Vietnam tended to be a local affair and was largely volunteer. Women, particularly from poor circumstances, followed the troops. Having served in Central Vietnam adjacent to the 9th Korean “White Horse” Divison, I can only speak for my area and my time. I feel very strongly that no South Korean troops forced any Vietnamese women into prostitution in my AOR, and strongly doubt that such was the case anywhere else in Central Vietnam. There were simply too many freelancers. Forced prostitution was entirely unnecessary. Now forcible rapes did happen, even in such a free-market hedonistic environment because there are always the 10% of any group who will either force some girl to perform some act she is unwilling to, or force themselves onto a girl, to include prostitutes, who do not want their attentions. Vietnam had both bar girls and prostitutes. The former functioned much like juicy girls, enticing drinks out of GIs, but with sex always a possible option. Many of these were looking for husbands, or at the least a long term (six months to a year in a combat zone) relationship. Prostitutes, on the other hand, were strictly pay for play. The standard for prostitutes in Vietnamese brothels in 1968-69 was $20.00 US for all night, but in the large cities and major bases, shorter times could be had for a higher or lower price, depending upon the girl’s popularity. Generally, combat troops depended upon brothels, and their field expedients, while the advisors, civilians, REMFs, and others with more exposure to Vietnam’s night life, found a favorite bar girl who sometimes became the missus. Batchelor advisors to Vietnamese units were often introduced to numerous young widows by their counterparts in hopes that a marriage would ensue and place the widow on a sounder economic footing. There were also numerous Vietnamese girls and women working for U.S. and Korean forces in various menial capacities who developed relationships with U.S. and Korean personnel that some times led to marriage. All these women were “prostitutes” in the eyes of the current Vietnamese government because all escaped “liberation” and have been able to return far better off than those they left behind. A supply sergeant I knew married a Vietnamese woman who was the common law second wife of a Vietnamese male. She abandoned her “husband” to run off with him, bringing six children with her. They never had any children of their own, but he raised all six of those kids, and sent four of them to college.


Cold statistics, and historical articles written by persons with an ax to grind, sometimes miss the real story.






ponta


August 14th, 2006 at 05:14 | #17


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lirelou

Very interesting.

But what is the difference beteen comfort women during WW2 and prostitutues during Vietnam War?

Comfort women

Civilian pimps recruited comfort women.

Civilian run the brothels.

Comfort women were paid by civilian brothel owners.

(And Japanese army regulated pimps’ illegal acts,Japanese soldiers used the brothel,Japanse army provided VD tests, japanese government later aplogized for the Japanese soldier’s involvement with comfort station )

and contributed funds for ex-comfort women,)

In some cases, a Japanese soldier proposed a comfort woman.fro marriage.


BTW


The following is the article about comfort women during the Korean war.


Besides according to Asahi news paper below.a korean sociologist 金貴玉 at 慶南 university found out;


1)korean army would have imitated Japanese comfort women system.


2)so far she gathered 8 tesitimonies.in which people said they used comfort system” “the army were about to abduct her,(she escaped)…

3)she found an official document that reads,”special comfort place”

it is to control the depression caused by the A physiologic change due to the desire for opposite sex)


4)in 1952, in four places, 89 comfort women did “comfort act”204,560 times,the survey says.


韓国軍慰安婦について日本で公になったのは初めて。発表した韓国・慶南大客員教授の金貴玉(キム・ギオク)さん(40)=社会学=は「日本軍の慰安婦制度をまねたものではないか」とみている。


金さんは96年、離散家族のインタビューの中で、「50年10月、韓国軍の捕虜になり、軍慰安隊の女性と出会った」という男性の証言を得た。以後5年間インタビューを重ね、「直接慰安所を利用した」「軍に拉致されて慰安婦にされかかった」という男女8人の証言を聞いた。


さらに金さんは、韓国の陸軍本部が56年に編さんした公文書『後方戦史(人事編)』に「固定式慰安所-特殊慰安隊」の記述を見つけた。設置目的として「異性に対するあこがれから引き起こされる生理作用による性格の変化等により、抑うつ症及びその他支障を来す事を予防するため」とあり、4カ所、89人の慰安婦が52年だけで20万4560回の慰安を行った、と記す特殊慰安隊実績統計表が付されている。






Darin


August 14th, 2006 at 06:03 | #18


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Whoa Whoa Whoa.. This is interesting…


http://www.pcic.go.kr:8088/pcic/english-1.htm


Look at #12…


So, if ALL Korean prostitutes/comfort women were stolen forcibly by Japan and could not possible be the work of any Korean at all any any way shape or form, how is it that the act of aiding the Japanese by supplying comfort women for them as a Korean now deems the government can steal all your assets? If that never happened, there would be no need to make a law about it correct?


Something doesn’t add up here…






Travolta


August 14th, 2006 at 07:12 | #19


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Wow this is truely interesting. Anyone with a brain will realise after only a few hours of research into this issue that most of the women involved were already prostitutes or from poor families looking into getting money any way possible. There is no doubt that some were most probably treated badly, raped, abused etc. Soldiers do that in times of war, it’s truely messed up. The reason it wont go away as an huge issue is because Koreans built up to be the greatest war crime ever in Asian history. I have had Koreans tell me that most of the women were taken at random off the streets of Seoul and the dirt roads of peaceful villages by the Japanese and thrown onto trucks without knowing what was going on and suddenly waking up in strange countries and being raped. It simply was not the case (Though that is EXACTLY what the North Koreans did to young Japanese girls). This facinating find shows evidence that it seems to be a practice dating back hundreds of years and not an evil idea which the Japanese came up with just to piss of Korea.


Im not saying it wasnt wrong, but it sure looks like it wasn’t exceptional.






KapSin


August 14th, 2006 at 08:05 | #20


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I agree that the evils of “comfort women” have been greatly exaggerated by manic Korean nationalism or anti-Japanism.


Soldiers need their lay, pure and simple; it’s been a tradition handed down since time immemorial.


Another interesting angle on this is that the Japanese provided the U.S. servicemen in Japan during the MacArthur era with their own “comfort women.”


And I heard that things for these Japanese prostitutes were at times, well, physically taxing. Just as was the case with the Korean comfort women during the Pacific War, the Japanese prostitutes served dozens of men.


In fact, given the indisputable disparity between the size of the Japanese male organ and its American counterpart, I would say that the Japanese prostitutes during the MacArthur years had a more “taxing” job






empraptor


August 14th, 2006 at 18:47 | #21


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Darin,


The portion of the Korean law you referred to:


12. Any act of mandatory mobilization of women for the purpose of comforting Japanese military forces;


Comforting? Ha! Did you find this funny too? Makes it seem like all they did was cuddle the Japanese soldiers and tell them how terrible it was that they had to fight. They really need to find better euphemism for sex. Or just calling it sex would be better.


And I quote here what I assume to be the opinion of a Korean state representative:


So, if ALL Korean prostitutes/comfort women were stolen forcibly by Japan and could not possible be the work of any Korean at all any any way shape or form,


The law only defines what acts are at issue in the article, not whether anyone performed those acts. But then again I’m only pointing out an error in syntactic logic.


Common sense does imply that there is a contradiction between the exitence of the law and the quoted assertion.


Common sense also tells me that whoever wrote up the law was more grounded in reality compared to whoever said Korean women were forced by Imperial Japan to sexually serve their armies with no help from ethnic Koreans. Whose statement was this, by the way?


Regardless, something is wrong here as you say. The law doesn’t seem very practical. How will they ever find out who this law applies to? How will they retroactively apply this law to an act committed over half a decade ago? Or would they bill it under treason against a state formed after the deed was done?


—————


As for King Sejong’s system, I don’t see why wjk keeps making excuses for the Korean system if it enslaved people and forced them to perform sexual services as Gerry implies it did. It would have been just as bad as the Japanese system.






empraptor


August 14th, 2006 at 18:49 | #22


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lol…


How will they retroactively apply this law to an act committed over half a decade ago?


that should read “half a century ago”






lirelou


August 14th, 2006 at 21:52 | #23


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Ponta. The only differences I see are that Vietnamese prostitutes were local girls, and the price was negotiated directly between the soldier and the girl, with the girl receiving the money directly. Also in the Vietnamese case, the girls were NOT recruited by any government agency. Some activists have alleged that by designating specific locales under military control for clubs or “steam and creams” the U.S. or ARVN militaries were participating, but the cases I saw were more of a zoning measure, although corruption and collusion by specific figures in authority was always possible.






Gerry-Bevers


August 14th, 2006 at 23:13 | #24


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In the 1970s, I heard that Korean officials would tell Korean prostitutes that it was a patriotic act to service US soldiers. I also heard that Korean police worked with the pimps to prevent their girls from escaping and running back to the farm. If a girl did manage to escape, the police would bring her back and even rough her up.


The scam back then was to put ads in magazines promising good paying waitress jobs. When a girl showed up, she would be given a room and furniture that would put her is such high-interest debt that she could never hope to pay it off with a waitress salary. Soon after, the girls would be forced to prostitute themselves. Back then a lot of Korean girls could not even read, so they were easy prey. By the way, if an American soldier fell in love with a girl, he first had to first pay off her debt before he could marry her.


When I was at Camp Humphreys in the late 1970s, US military personnel could not even walk down the street with a girl unless she was a registered bargirl with an up-to-date VD card. That meant that average Korean girls could not visit you in the area without running the risk of being arrested. The Korean police generally knew the girls in the area and would stop any girl they did not recognize who was walking with someone in the US military. It happened with me more than once. Soldiers and sailors were essentially forced to socialize only with registered bargirls.


Many, many Korean girls were sex slaves in the 1970s, and Korean authorities supported their enslavement. Therefore, I wonder why there is so much fuss about something that happened more than sixty years ago with the Japanese system, yet so little fuss about what happened less than thirty years ago with the Korean system?


Will Koreans ever demand that the Korea government compensate their comfort women from the 1960s and 70s? Probably not, because then the money would have to come out of their own pockets.






ponta


August 15th, 2006 at 07:03 | #25


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lirelou

thanks.


the only differences I see are that Vietnamese prostitutes were local girls, and the price was negotiated directly between the soldier and the girl, with the girl receiving the money directly


Yes.that is different. Comfort women received money from brothel owner, and some of them earned 300 yen to 1500 yen a month when average labour got 50 yen a month.


Also in the Vietnamese case, the girls were NOT recruited by any government agency. Some activists have alleged that by designating specific locales under military control for clubs


That is not difference:the situation is similar.There is no evidence that government agency recruited comfort women except some some dubious testimonies. The only official document to show the government’s involvement is that Japanese army ordered to regulate illegal pimps. There is a collections of testimonies examined by Korean professor.

True Stories of the Korean Comfort Women The Korean professor wrote


This book was begun in March 1992, when members of the society began speaking to about 40 former comfort women who had given their addresses and had indicated a willingness to be contacted. In the process of recording testimonies, the number of women we decided to include here was narrowed down to 19. We eliminated those who were reluctant to talk about the details of their experiences, those whose stories contained inconsistencies and those who contradicted themselves.


Out of these supposedly reliable 19 cases, 4 cases were said to be abducted by force by government agent.

out of these four women, two cases turned out that they said they went to the comfort stations where there was no comfort stations.

Other two women sued Japanese government but in the file they testified they were sold as kaesen,they did not say in the court they were forced by government agent.


I know little about the situation at Vietnam, but here is a account of Korean government involvement in the system of prostitutes.


Kalani O’Sullivan


Thus the South Korean government embarked on an official program during the 1970s that praised the women for earning foreign exchange and boosting the economy,


In the 1970s and ’80s, the Korean Special Tourism Assn. enjoyed favorable treatment by the South Korean government. The South Korean government tacitly supported prostitution near the U.S. bases as a way of solidifying the military alliance and of bringing in scarce hard currency.


in the 1970s the Korean government was also engaged in the surveillance and authoritarian control of the prostitutes servicing the US military


the Korean government started a clean-up campaign in 1971 that included infrastructural improvements and enforcement of regular medical examinations of prostitutes, detaining infected women at special centers


what I want to say is not Japanese army was not wrong.They were wrong,and probably some of soldiers abused the system.What I want to point out is that average Korean people are not informed of the fact their own government was involved in the similar practice they severely criticize and repeat blaming japan after PM’s apology and funds. Or it might be that they know it but they don’t care because it was done by Korean race, though.






wjk


August 15th, 2006 at 14:00 | #26


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Gerry, even if I assumed what you were saying were mostly true, those women serving US troops didn’t get raped 40 times a day (according to my understanding of the matter, and definitely not yours).


Gerry, did you take note of the recent Japanese nurse’s confession that the Japanese buried evidence of medical experiments done in Japan, and built housing and playgrounds on top of those areas, so no one would ask questions?


Gerry, you seem to want to view the Japanese Empire in the best light possible, and assign all Korean complaints to be ultimately stemming from elective Korean decisions.


http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/scp_v3/viewer/index.php?pid=16598&rn=49750&cl=691400&ch=49799&src=news.yahoo.com


Gerry, live out another 20 years, you’ll see that the reports you rely on aren’t necessarily 100% true, and there will be more Japanese people who will come forward with damaging evidence against the Japanese Empire.






wjk


August 15th, 2006 at 14:09 | #27


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and, Gerry, you’re presenting what you supposedly heard from another person as truth.


Yet you trash the testimony of women in their 80′s and 90′s, from Korea, China, Phillipines, Taiwan, etc.


And put 100% belief behind a 1944 war time report prepared by a male US solider, who probably spoke ENGLISH. A report that says Japanese troops married ugly, uneducated, prostitutes. A report that says WieAnBu women were very well off, relative to war time standards, never having much material needs.


I elect to believe the tears of the women.






ponta


August 15th, 2006 at 14:45 | #28


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WJK

Did Gerry say something about comfort women under Japanese rule on this thread?


The point is that Korea had ” comfort station” the government was involved in the similar sense Japanese government was involved before Japanese rule, and after Japanese rule.That is the fact that Korean people should face just as Japan ,albeit reluctantly, faced the fact the Japanese government was involved in the” comfort station”.And Japanese prime minister apologized.

I just don’t understand why Korean people do not blame Korean government and Korean pimps as severely as they did to Japanese:.(One reason the issue of comfort woman was left alone for so many years, Bruce Coming points out, that “many women were mobilized by korean men” p179 Korea’s place in the sun)

It seems to me the logical thing for Korean people to do is to gather and shout out and demonstrate in front of the blue house, “aplogize, and compensate!”"no more Korean pimps,no more exploitation of Korean women”.it does good for Korean women,Korean victims of sex trade

Instead what you are trying to say ,when it is pointed out that Korea has engaged in the similar practices,is, in your understanding,Japan did worse…….Or is it just that Korean people just want to express the hatred against Japan—by any chance?






wjk


August 15th, 2006 at 16:24 | #29


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Ponta, Gerry called these women “Comfort Women”, thus directly drawing comparison himself. In the TITLE. This was clearly intentional on Gerry’s part. I don’t know about you, Ponta, but the term Comfort Women only relates to one pretty specific group in history.


Korea’s practice is more similar to the present day situations to be found around Korean bases for the Koreans, Korean bases for the US, US bases in the US, Russian bases in Russia, French bases in France, etc.


Also, don’t forget that the edict mentions unmarried men as the group to be serviced.


It’s not all to be compared to our equated with what I (and clearly not YOU) understand as what the comfort women were. Again, no prostitute in the world willingly takes money to be raped 40 times a day. The title of this thread is wrong it itself. These were Prostitutes for His Troops, not Comfort Women for His Troops.


Go ask the Comfort Women in Kyongkido, why they’re protesting against the Japanese government. Present the same logic to them. I would be very interested on what they had to say.






wjk


August 15th, 2006 at 16:52 | #30


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Sejong’s edict mentions the following groups, Chang Ki, Kwan Ki, Ki Nyuh.


They don’t mention anything about putting out false ads for recruiting young women to work, grabbing pretty women off the street, etc.


Every army in the world probably has brothels around their bases.


You can probably dig up documents proving that the French, British, Chinese, Russian, German, Polish, governments allowed military brothels at one point or another.


None of those are comfort women.


None of those women in the history of mankind rose up to demand an apology and compensation.


Comfort women were not simply in brothels, they were victims of sexual war crimes.






Errol


August 15th, 2006 at 19:41 | #31


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The point for the more obtuse is that prostitution existed long before Japanese or US forces arrived.


But chemyeon means the room salons all over Korea and in Koreatowns all over the world exploiting poor and uneducated Korean girls are really the fault of the Japanese and the Yankees.


The myth of “college educated” girls making a lot of money in that business is risible.






Errol


August 15th, 2006 at 19:47 | #32


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From a Korean friend who works as a Chinese interpreter.


XXXX: I think it’s basically Korean culture

chinese men of course go to redlight districts but the room salon..it’s definitely Korean, don’t you think?

it’s a big, big sex industry in disguise!

Sent at 12:39 PM on Wednesday

XXXXX: I didn’t actually see those men mingle with those girls cause I came out of that dirty place before the girls came in

Sent at 12:41 PM on Wednesday

XXXXX: but I saw the most dirty, filthy ladies’ room ,

and the waiting room…and the girls waiting, smoking…


XXXX: and those men sitting in such a big, big chair, the luxurious room, waiting for the girls (who could be as young as their daughters)….I got so sick I almost puked

if all Korean men are like that…I don’t think I could ever marry a Korean guy

I mean, what the hell…

Sent at 12:44 PM on Wednesday

XXXX: I got so shocked at the fact that things like that actually happen, I couldn’t sleep all night, and I didn’t talk neither look at those people on my way back to Korea..


Me: Oh those yankees and Japanese what naughty boys they are …






ponta


August 15th, 2006 at 20:36 | #33


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before Japanese rule


Also, don’t forget that the edict mentions unmarried men as the group to be serviced.


http://toron.pepper.jp/jp/syndrome/image/kinzu.jpg


高麗史 16巻 Koryo forbid women to marry,and sent virgin to Mongle as a gift..

The official in Koryo demanded beautiful women and forced them to marry them.The king of Koryo did not say a word.

高麗史提綱

when the time to gift virgine to Mongle was coming, marriage was forbidden.


忠烈王元年冬(一二七五)十月…..

toron

During Yi chosun there was 20,000 kaesen,that is 0.5% of the total population of Korea.Most of kaesen were prostitute contrary to common belief.

映 殿 尻


after Japanese rule


people coerced into prostitution was apparently not uncommon up until the 1980s. The movie ‘Chang’ starring the main actress in “My Wife is a Gangster” depicted this kind of thing. It’s worth seeing.


kushibo


the former comfort women complain


Two biggest complaints from ex-comort women in the interview are as follows.


1) 위안부봉사단체인 두 기관들은 위안부를 이용하여 국내외로부터 모금도 하고, 자신들의 명예를 올리기 위해 일하며, 모금한 돈을 나누어 주지도 않는다.


Two volounteer organizations for ex-comfort woman are rasing donation from inside and outside the country;They work for fame,but they do not distribute the money to ex-comfort women.


2) 몇 명 안 되는 할머니들을 앵벌이로 삼아 국제 망신을 시키고 다닌다. 우리는 돈을 바라지 않는다. 우리가 바라는 것은 명예다. 우리를 이용하여 국제 모금을 하는 것은 우리를 두 번 모욕 주는 행위다.


….. We do not want money.All we want to is to resotore our dignity.Raising donation, exploiting us, means insulting us twice.


또 우리 정부와 시민단체 등이 툭하면 위안부 할머니들을 내세워 일본을 비판하고 일본에게 배상할 것을 요구하고 있으나 정작 정부와 시민단체 등이 위안부할머니에게 해준 일이 별로 없다고 지적하고 오히려 일본인들이 위안부 할머니들의 건강과 소송문제, 또 장례식 등까지 세세한 부분에 대해 지속적인 관심과 보살핌을 펴왔음을 역설적으로 전했다.


The government and NGO tend to use ex-comfort women to criticize Japan and to demand conpensation,but they did little to help us. Rather, Japanese people helped ex-comfor t women to receive medical check-ups,to file suit , carry out the funeral and other minor things, and they have showed continuous concern and served us well.


이와 관련 2004년 위안부 할머니중 한명인 박봉순할머니가 사망했을 때 장례식장에 한국인은 거의 없고 일본인들이 몇명 모여서 장례를 치뤘는데 화장비도 일본인들이 내고 유골을 운반할 때도 무궁화회 회장인 심미자 할머니가 먼길을 걸으면서 홀로 운반해야 했다는 가슴 아픈 일화를 소개했다. 봉사단체 관계자는 보이지 않았다면서 위안부봉사단체의 허구성을 통열히 비판했다.


When a one of the ex-comfort women passed away, there were few Koreans in the funeral but the Japanese gathered and carried out the funeral…..Nobody from the organization came to the funeral…


언론이나 TV에 나오는 할머니중 일부는 일본에서는 진짜가 아니라고 본다면서 이로 인해 한국이 불신을 받고 국제적인 망신을 당할 우려가 있음도 지적했다.

.

She pointed out that Korea might disgrace herself,saying that some of these old ladies are not considered as real by


(지만원 )


There are always denier.The sooner they admit the truth, the better.

Ultra-nationalists only use comfort women to fuel the hatred.


Many of the Korean victims,….., were put under intense social pressures to refuse the Japanese donations, although they sorely needed that support


BBC

I feel sorry for Korean women.






Gerry-Bevers


August 15th, 2006 at 20:41 | #34


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Wjk,


I used “comfort women” in my title because King Sejong used prostitutes for much the same reason that Japan used them during the Asia and Pacific wars. By the way, the northern frontier was considered a remote and dangerous place because the troops there had to deal with the northern “barbarians.” As for how many troops King Sejong’s comfort women serviced each day, we do not know, do we? And we also do not know how the women were recruited.


In regard to the women working in the bars outside the gates of Camp Humphreys in the 1970s, I heard from the women, themselves, that the police prevented them from running away. To the police, the woman’s debt to the pimp was more important than the fact that she was being forced to prostitute herself. In effect, her debt made her an indentured servant. Isn’t that similar to the methods used by the Korean and Japanese pimps during World War II?


When have I “trashed” the testimonies of the comfort women?


The Japanese have been accused of making excuses for their “comfort woman” system, but now you, Wjk, seem to be making excuses for Korea’s.






ponta


August 15th, 2006 at 21:20 | #35


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However, the fact is that prostitution is everywhere in Korea. From the ubiquitous barber pole to the basement coffee shops, prostitution is a higher chunk of the GDP than agriculture. According to a report released by the Korean Institute of Criminology (KIC), the nation’s sex trade was estimated at 24 trillion won (US$ 20.4 billion) last year, accounting for 4.1 percent of 578 trillion won, the total GDP.


Dancers in a Seoul Nightclub

Nearly 20 percent of men aged between 20 and 64 visit prostitutes on average 4.5 times every month, spending a sum that breaks down to 154,000 won (US$ 130) each time.


soel times


If someone loves Korea,he/she is going to make effort to change the situation.

If someone just enjoy “hating Japan,USA”, they turn a blind eye on what has been going on by Koreans themselves.






wjk


August 15th, 2006 at 23:47 | #36


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Gerry, all I’m saying is that the people you have described aren’t Comfort Women. Some others keep bringing up the Koreans rounding up women to be married off to the Mongols, the Chinese, or even the Manchurians. Those aren’t comfort women, either. And notice that, the Mongols asked for girls to be married. That’s different from the way the Japanese used Comfort women.


Being forced to marry is different from being forced to face a lot of different men, with the goal of not having any children from the relationship.


I don’t condone whichever Chinese power demanded women to be sent to them forcefully (PRETTY ones, whereas the US report says the Japanese took UGLY ones), nor the Korean power which complied to avoid invasion, war, or economic sanctions, or whatever. However, these were not comfort women. None of these Korean women who went to China, who served Korean troops in Korea, who served American GI’s in Korea, are to be equated with the Comfort women who served Japanese troops in World War II.


Once, I caught a History channel program, which had testimonies by French/Dutch/Norweigian women who had relationships with German soldiers during WWII. Their experiences are nowhere near what the Korean/Taiwan/Chinese/Phillipines/Vietnam Comfort Women describe. Some of these French/Dutch/Norweigian women fell in love with their German partners, try to find them in present day, have kids who are around their 60′s now, etc. The focus of this program was on half German children left in France, Netherlands, Norway, who were persecuted as they grew up, because they were half children of the German WWII troops.


What I want to say is that, the Japanese army didn’t give these “Comfort Women” a normal life of a prostitute who receives money in exchange for sex.


No, no, no.


And some on this board brought up the fact that prostitution exists in South Korea. Oh, really ? Where does prostitution not exist? That’s supposed to be an eye opener? Hey, if you didn’t know already, there are prostitues in England, Austrailia, the US, Mexico, Russia, China, etc.


And some have brought up the fact that there are South Korean prostitutes in the US. Oh, really ? Does that somehow excuse the Japanese government from what they did in WWII? For crying out loud, I bet there are Russian, Polish, Mexican, Chinese, etc prostitutes in the US. So what? Am I supposed to conclude that Korean women liked having sex so much, that they volunteered to receive good money and a comfortable war time life during WWII and had all the sex and money they could get, and now near their death beds, they’re so full of anger and rage, just because they want money from the Japanese government? Wow, that must be a Korean trait. I mean, the European prostitutes took it the cool way, but these Koreans must not be cool. Yeah, right. I’d rather conclude that the Japanese Army did something extraoridinarily disgusting to these women of Northeast and Southeast Asia. That makes more sense to me, than your approaches.


And, I do buy the story that these comfort women in Korea are neglected and cast out of society, except for events when they protest against the Japanese government. South Korea is definitely not a country that stands up for the weak, the poor, the disabled, etc. For a long time, I thought there were no disabled people in Korea, when I grew up, because I hardly saw any at school or anywhere. They all stayed home, that’s why ! But, things get better for these people as the country becomes more developed. After all, it took the US to get to the early 90′s to pass the ADA. It will take South Korea a long time as well to stop shunning a group of people as outcasts. But, contrary to your suggestions, this is not a Korean problem. There are outcasts in India, the Middle East, Africa, etc. Not to say that Europe has any crap to say about the matter. After all, it was the Europeans (Nazi Germany) who tried to get rid of social outcasts by burning them in furnaces, sterilizing them, etc, was it not?






ponta


August 16th, 2006 at 00:46 | #37


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wjk

Your comment is a little confusing.


Korean pimps exploiting Korean women during and after Japanese rule, Korean pimps kidnapping, trafficking Korean women to the world ,Korean government tacitly having been approving the practice does not cancel the wrongs Japan had done during WWⅡ,they have little to do with the guilt Japan committed, but it has a lot to do with the guilt’s Koreans committed.

(BTW,are you saying collecting forcibly beautiful Korean women and forcing them to marry and gifting them as a slave is much better? Is Korean brothel giving Korean women a normal life of a prostitute who receives money in exchange for sex. by kidnapping?)


Japanese government apologized to comfort women and set up the fund for them.Japanese volunteers has been helping them,according to a former comfort women.


Korean ultra-nationalist interfere with comfort women receiving the money,because their purpose is not helping them but fueling the hatred..

The former Korean comfort women complained it.


It sounds to me all you are saying is ,in your understanding, Japan did worse, everyone has done the similar things, Korea is improving—that sounds very apologetic.

Why don’t Korean people gather, shout, demonstrate ,explode against Korean government ,Korean pimps just as fiercely as they do against Japan, USA?


But Jesus bent down started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her…..When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders;


Koreans were the first to throw a stone, they can throw a second stone, can’t they?





GarlicBreath


August 16th, 2006 at 07:50 | #38


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Please allow me to boil down what good old WJK is saying.


USA/Japanese = Evil

Korean = Good


Foreigners mixing with Korean women = bad/rape


The world is very simple to WJK.






empraptor


August 16th, 2006 at 14:21 | #39


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I think ponta’s quote clearly demonstrates why Jesus was out of touch with reality. You shouldn’t deny an angry mob a good stoning. What he really should have advocated is an all-out stoning party, where everyone gets stoned equally. In the end, it will all work out with everyone embracing each other lovingly with bloody broken arms.





In more serious note… “ultra-nationalist”? I don’t think it’s just ponta using that phrase. Often, when I read “nationalist”, there’s “ultra-” in front of it. Usually “Korean” there too. Yeah, I get it. You’re emphasizing just how much of a dick Koreans are. But at some point, you must get tired of having to type that over and over again. Might as well set up a “ultra-nationalist Korean” hotkey on your computer. And at this point, the “ultra-” doesn’t even give me any information. I’ve been desensitized.





In yet more serious note, the comments here reminds me to ask – what is the concensus on accounts of atrocities involving “Comfort Women”?


You know, the outrageous stuff. Aborting babies by sitting on expecting mother’s belly or by stabbing with a sword – so that the mother can get back to work. Doctors administering STD drugs that cause infertility. Women finding out soldiers had served them human meat of a fellow sex slave.


All fiction? All true? Rare events made possible by poor administration, flagging ethics in wartime, unstable soldiers? Were the perps punished? What kind of punishment was administered?


If you read Korean blogs, you’d think it happened all the time. If you read some people’s comments on Occidentalism, you’d think thing like that never happened.






Gerry-Bevers


August 16th, 2006 at 15:43 | #40


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Empraptor,


I have seen Koreans sling so much crap when it comes to history that now I probably believe less than 10 percent of what they say, especially when it comes to the Japanese. For example, Koreans used to tell me that there was no prostitution in Korea until the Japanese brought it. Well, as you can see from the record that I posted from the Annals of King Sejong, that claim was a bunch of crap.


Also, I have read enough of the history concerning Dokdo/Takeshima to know that Koreans are lying through their teeth in that regard. If you want to know just how much crap they are slinging in regard to Dokdo/Takeshima, then watch the following video:


Dokdo Video


So, even though I do not know much about Japan’s comfort women system, I am going to assume that much of what China and Korea say about it is crap.






Victor


August 16th, 2006 at 17:21 | #41


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WJK,

The issue of comfort women has been already brought up in this thread last year. If it’s going to be of any interest to you, here are some of the key points that should debunk the japanese side’s claimes on comfort women:


1) In 1999, “a key U.N. human rights body based in Geneva, Switzerland, declared that the Japanese government should compensate women forced to serve as sex slaves for Japanese soldiers during World War II” (15-2 resolution)


2) Curing its 105th CONGRESS session, the U.S. Congress officially denounced the japanese government and urged it to provide proper compensation to the former comfort women.


3) The Geneva-based International Commission of Jurists rule that the former comfort women deserve at least $40,000 each.


4) The International jurists also issued a report on the Comfort Women in 1994 which referred to large numbers of women and girls being held captive, beaten, tortured, and repeatedly raped in Japanese military installations.


5) In 1999, U.S. Congressman Lane Evans officially criticized the Japanese government, calling the comfort woman system “one of the most flagrant violations of human rights.


6) The Japan Policy Research Institute, which was founded in 1994 by Chalmers Johnson and Steven C. Clemons, “confirmed” that the comfort women were nothing but sex slaves.


7) In 2001, International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development (Rights & Democracy), created by the canadian congress, submitted an official statement to the U.N. And the organization heavily criticized the Japanese government and its neglect of proper compensation to the former comfort women….






Matt


August 16th, 2006 at 17:27 | #42


Reply | Quote




In yet more serious note, the comments here reminds me to ask – what is the concensus on accounts of atrocities involving “Comfort Women”?


You know, the outrageous stuff. Aborting babies by sitting on expecting mother’s belly or by stabbing with a sword – so that the mother can get back to work. Doctors administering STD drugs that cause infertility. Women finding out soldiers had served them human meat of a fellow sex slave.


All fiction? All true? Rare events made possible by poor administration, flagging ethics in wartime, unstable soldiers? Were the perps punished? What kind of punishment was administered?


If you read Korean blogs, you’d think it happened all the time. If you read some people’s comments on Occidentalism, you’d think thing like that never happened.


Empraptor, that is a good question that deserves an answer.


First read this 1944 contemporary account of the comfort women from the US army. As far as I know, that report is the only contemporary account that methodically describes what the comfort women were doing, and in what conditions they were doing it. The report is an internal report, not an anti-Japanese propaganda document, so there is no reason to believe that it suffers from any bias or distortions. And despite wjk’s ‘belief’ that these investigators could only speak English, the worlds most sophisticated army was able to come up with some people that could communicate with the girls.


As for aborting baby’s by sitting on a womans belly, well, perhaps Koreans think that is possible or is a traditional Korean method of abortion. Japanese knew how to do medical abortions, so there was no need to sit on anyones belly, or stab anyone with a sword. What do prostitutes in Korea normally do if they get pregnant? Something to think about.


The same with the STD drugs and cannibalism. The Japanese going to the effort of producing a drug that cures STDs and causes infertility? Just because they are bastards that enjoy doing stuff like that, right? The cannibalism is the same – I doubt you could find a Japanese chef willing to prepare human meat. Cannibalism would also destroy the morale of the soldiers. It does not take much thinking to realise that claims like that are nonsense.


Wjk says that pretty women were dragged off the street and forced to become comfort women. If that were true, there would be accounts of Koreans protesting the kidnapping of their daughters. The Korean government claims that 200 000 Korean women were comfort women (a number for which it has never offered any methodology for) – if that were true, do you think that not even one Korean would raise their voice in protest if their female family members were kidnapped off the street?


The most important thing that needs to be asked is “where is the money?”. The 1944 report made it clear that the women all had a ‘debt’. This ‘debt’ was money paid up front in exchange for future services rendered. Where did the money go? Probably to the comfort womans family. Even if the girl did not know what she was getting into, surely the family members knew they were not getting thousands of yen just so their daughters could do a normal job. It seems a case of families selling their daughters for money. Of course, the report also makes it clear that many were just regular prostitutes that did know what they were getting into an signed up for the money.


Of course, that does not mean the Japanese army does not have any responsibilty. Once the money was paid and the contract (for 6-12 months) sealed with the family stamp, the girl had little way to escape it. I suppose the girl could say she didnt want to have sex with soldiers, but then they would ask her how she is going to pay back her family debt.


I think the comfort woman system was quite shameful, although the Japanese army used the system to prevent rapes of women in war zones. I think Korean society is trying to shift the blame from themselves to an easy target – WW2 Japan. The fact is the average Korean woman was in no danger of becoming a comfort woman. It takes a family willing to accept a small fortune in exchange for their daughters sexual services. The question again is “where did the money go?”.


The comfort women themselves have a choice. Be despised as the worst kind of collaborators, prostitutes for the Japanese, or be victims that were forced into it by the Japanese army. Choosing the latter also means that they might have a chance at ‘compensation’.


The comfort woman system was wrong. People that did not want to be prostitutes became prostitutes because of family pressure (although again, not all, many knew what they were doing) and the Japanese army did nothing to stop it. That is because in those days in Japan, but especially Korea, women were chattel with little ability to defy the head of the household. However, what the Koreans are doing now is wrong. Korean society is trying to transfer all the responsibility for this on to the Japanese. I dont think I have ever seen Koreans reflect on their role in the comfort women system, or how people could sell their family members to become prostitutes.






Victor


August 16th, 2006 at 20:35 | #43


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Matt,

It’s no use to defend the Japanese at this point. Even the Japanese government seems to have accepted the fact that the comfort women were put in miserable condition and that these women were recruited against their will, according to Coomaraswamy Report to the United Nations in 1996.


According to this report submitted to the U.N., followings are some of the facts of the comfort women that have been acknowledged by the Government of Japan, following the study on the comfort women in:


1) ” the Japanese military directly operated comfort stations.”


2) ” [comfort] women were forced to move with the military under constant military control and that they were deprived of their freedom and had to endure misery“.


3) .. “although recruitment in many cases had been carried out by private operators, the recruiters resorted to “coaxing and intimidating” these women who were recruited “against their will”.


(All the quoted information is found in VIII. MORAL RESPONSIBILITY

section of the report…)


This is what the report says about the Japanese government’s acknowledgment of the misery of the comfort women: “The Government of Japan has not accepted legal responsibility but in many statement s appears to accept moral responsibility for the existence of “comfort women” during the Second World War. The Special Rapporteur considers this a welcome beginning.”






Matt


August 16th, 2006 at 21:47 | #44


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Victor, I am not going to run around in circles about this or any other subject with you. I sent you an email explaining, but I will say it again here. Occidentalism is for adults. This means you wont be able to spam my comments section with things like “so and so said such and such about the Japanese”. I could have banned you before for lying about being a Canadian and not understanding Hangul, but I overlooked it. Please refrain from posting until you are old enough to participate properly.


Sorry Victor, but I am enforcing an adults only rule here.






Victor


August 16th, 2006 at 22:59 | #45


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Matt wrote:


And despite wjk’s ‘belief’ that these investigators could only speak English, the worlds most sophisticated army was able to come up with some people that could communicate with the girls.


Matt, then how would you explain the existence of this document that has been unearthed and subsequently published in the international journal of peace studies?


From: Military Administration, Ministry of Army

Re: On the recruitment of comforters in the military brothels.

To: Division commanders stationed in North and Central China

In recruiting women for the creation of military brothels in the Chinese front, […] the recruiting method is similar to kidnapping.


Matt wrote:


Even if the girl did not know what she was getting into, surely the family members knew they were not getting thousands of yen just so their daughters could do a normal job. It seems a case of families selling their daughters for money. Of course, the report also makes it clear that many were just regular prostitutes that did know what they were getting into an signed up for the money.



1. Then, how come the International Commissions of jurists [ICJ] declared that the former comfort women deserve at least $40,000 each?


2. Why do you think the U.N. human rights body declared that the japanese government should provide proper compensation to these women?


[I provided the links to ICJ and the U.N. article in the thread I posted in my response to WJK..]


3. According to this report on the taiwanese comfort women, the comfort women who had higher incomes mailed their money back to their families in Taiwan. Why would have done it, had their families already made thousands of yen on the women???


By the way, Matt, you are so amazingly perceptive. Yes, I’m just a 15-year-old South Korean who likes to pretend to be a Korean-Canadian. And I just happen to be able to write decent English and French, because I just happen to be a genuis in foreign languages..Since teenagers are not allowed here, I will never post again. [you see..I respect your rule] But do me a favour and don’t delete this post…


All the best,

Victor, the Korean teenager…






empraptor


August 16th, 2006 at 23:02 | #46


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Matt,


Thanks for the reply. I’ll consider it as one vote to “completely false”. I will do a quote-and-reply on some of what you wrote.


As for aborting baby’s by sitting on a womans belly, well, perhaps Koreans think that is possible or is a traditional Korean method of abortion.


I dunno the traditional Korean method of abortion. My guess would be some herbal medicine or if you can’t acquire it injuring yourself in some way.


Japanese knew how to do medical abortions, so there was no need to sit on anyones belly, or stab anyone with a sword. What do prostitutes in Korea normally do if they get pregnant? Something to think about.


I think the idea behind these stories is that the women were treated like objects. Abortion by the gruesome methods described, rather than implying a lack of better methods of abortion, underscores that the abortion in the story was performed forcefully on an unwilling woman.


The same with the STD drugs and cannibalism. The Japanese going to the effort of producing a drug that cures STDs and causes infertility? Just because they are bastards that enjoy doing stuff like that, right?


I got the effect of the drug mixed up. It apparently caused abortion in the stories. Cases of infertility was attributed to STD and having sex/being raped so frequently. Though I’m sure I could find someone to dispute that too.


Reading the story about “Number 606″, I thought of the abortion as an undesired side-effect rather than the purpose of the drug. And I imagines such things happening through negligence and apathy rather than outright malice. Although now that I think about it, getting rid of STD and aborting the baby would both help get “comfort women” back to work.


Anyway, I did not for once think Japanese doctors developed a special drug in order to make people suffer. I attributed it to lack of a better drug with less severe side-effects.


The cannibalism is the same – I doubt you could find a Japanese chef willing to prepare human meat. Cannibalism would also destroy the morale of the soldiers. It does not take much thinking to realise that claims like that are nonsense.


The story didn’t have any chefs in it. It was about how soldiers served to some “comfort women” the meat of another who had been killed.


Also, I don’t see a direct connection between cannibalism and morale of troops. Maybe I’m missing something.


I think it’s safe to assume that you think accounts of Allied POW’s being served as delicacies are false as well?


The 1944 report made it clear that the women all had a ‘debt’. This ‘debt’ was money paid up front in exchange for future services rendered. Where did the money go? Probably to the comfort womans family. Even if the girl did not know what she was getting into, surely the family members knew they were not getting thousands of yen just so their daughters could do a normal job. It seems a case of families selling their daughters for money.


The report you linked to does mention debt. It also mentions that Japanese recruiters misrepresented the nature of the work to them. Also mentions family debt that existed before recruitment. Sounds like women from poor families, getting into a debt to erase a family debt. Or being sold by the family as you say. But if recruiters were painting rosy pictures about the job to a poor and uninformed family, isn’t it conceivable some parents actually bought into the lie?


The women were being sent to dangerous places, after all. I’d expect pay was better for people working in occupied territories. But regardless of who knew what, it seems the women were being treated as commodities.


I dont think I have ever seen Koreans reflect on their role in the comfort women system, or how people could sell their family members to become prostitutes.


I imagine it’s quite hard sell a child even if you’ve got to feed several others and people are practically knocking on your door to do it.


I keep being stuck on the term prostitute being used to describe people being sold into sex work. The families who sold their daughters would have been selling them as sex slaves.





Just so it’s clear – rather than implying anything about the nature of the Japanese people in general, the stories (if they are true and reflect the norm) tell something about Imperial Japan’s military.


Anyway, my main concern here is that rarely will people take a moderate viewpoint on the matter. Most people seem to side one way or another, either accepting or denying all such stories.


Though if such stories were told about Korean systems of military sex slaves, there too would probably be a large gap dividing two very distinct opinions.






Matt


August 16th, 2006 at 23:14 | #47


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Empraptor, you are right that the lines a quite clearly drawn on this matter. I think the best way is for the Korean government to compensate the comfort women out of the money they recieved from Japan in the 1960′s. That way the Korean government will take care to ensure that only genuine victims will recieve compensation, and will undertake efforts to investigate properly. If the Japanese government were to pay (again), Koreans would not care about who is genuine and who is not.






ponta


August 16th, 2006 at 23:49 | #48


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Korean prostitutes

Before Japanese rule

they were literally slaves

women were kidnapped).

they had to do washing ,cleaning besides sexual service.

they were not paid.they were unfree for life.

government was directly involved with it.


During Japanese rule.

some were treated like slave.

some were claimed to be kidnapped.

they were paid, but contract bound them.

some had to do washing,cleaning besides sexual service.

.Japanese government was indirectly involved with it.


After Japanese rule

During Korean war.A Korean sociologist claims based on the official document found that Korean government imitated Japanese comfort stations.

70′s

some were treated like slave.

some were claimed to be kidnapped.

they were paid but contract bound them.

government was indirectly involved with it.


∴Gerry’s use of the word “comfort women” are not inappropriate.


Nature of US report::

US soldier had no reason to underestimate what comfort woman said.

Rather comfort women has reason to report overestimated damage done to them.

Comfort women’s memory was fresh.

Nonetheless it does not follow the situation was similar everywhere .It is possible that some comfort women in some place were abused as testified more than 40 years later..At the same time, there is little reason that the report was in particular an exceptional case.


Nature of testimonies in 90′s

Out of 40 ex-comfort women who volunteered to be interviewed by researchers, only 19 cases are useful to publish.(this is only a collection of testimonies which was examined scientifically) Other cases contain contradictory remark.or they faintly remember.

The testimonies were the result of the help that “all the researchers compared the details of the accounts with what we know about the military history of Japan through documents.”

Even examined testimonies had contradictions.


Other testimonies which are floating on the net are detailed They are what self-claimed ex-comfort women said to the newspaper reporters.,but they are not examined by the researchers.Some ex-comfort women doubt them.Those comfort women did not volunteered to be interviewed by researchers who examined the consistency of their story but published comments in respond to a newspaper. It does not follow they are false,but when researchers say comfort women “can faintly remember the sufferings they endured” the detailed testimonies must rather taken with grain of salt.


nature of Coomaraswamy Report

The report at UN is evaluated in the following way

1 commend

2 welcome

3 take note with appreciation

4 take note

Her report got evaluation level 4.

Her report did not take account of US report.


Japanese government admitted they were indirectly involved, aplogized, set up funds for them.

Koreans government has not done anything.


Korean ultranationalists interfered with comfort women receiving the donations.Korean ultranationalists don’t want to settle the issue ,so that they can keep on hating Japan.they don’t care if comfort women are saved.they love hating rather than saving Korean women


Some reactions against Gerry’s post about Korean prostitute are interesting.


wjk/emempraptor/Victor:(I guess wjk is ethnic Korean)

Japan did worse/Japan did the similar things.

They don’t bother to research the how the Korean prostitutes have been while they like to talk about comfort women for whom Japanese government

apologized and set up funds.


Recommended Actions.

Just as Korean people were passionate to blame Japan, they should blame Korean government and Korean pimps for the better Korean society.


Unrecommended Actions.

Every time you meet Koreans on the net, you say how horrible Korean prostitutes have been treated by Korean people. just as some Koreans did to Japanese internet users.That is just a example of pure hate, the will to hate,culture of hate.Those actions are not recommended.






ponta


August 17th, 2006 at 00:40 | #49


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The women were then made to work as prostitutes to pay off their debts and traded between various brothels. The brothel owners and managers kept a large portion of the money paid by customers and credited the rest against the debts.


“The women are in some instances told or led to believe that, if they leave the prostitution business before paying off their debts, they will suffer a range of harms,” the complaint said. “The women are sometimes threatened with harm to their families in Korea.”( Aug 16, 2006)


link

Exactly the same method Korean pimps used during WWⅡ.


I feel really sorry for Korean women.They have been exploited by Korean pimps and Korean government before, during ,after Japanese rule while Korean society just focuses on, and keep focusing on comfort women exploited by Japanese soldiers when Japanese government apologized and set up funds.

Ethnic Koreans join this force, and still keep saying Japan did the worse, ignoring what has been happening to the ex-comfort women, Korean prostitutes by Korean people even when the topic is about traditional Korean comfort women.






ponta


August 17th, 2006 at 06:49 | #50


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Testimonies

When the memory was fresh

US report

SOLDIERS REACTIONS;


hey lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places. This was especially true of their second year in Burma. They lived well because their food and material was not heavily rationed and they had plenty of money with which to purchase desired articles. They were able to buy cloth, shoes, cigarettes, and cosmetics to supplement the many gifts given to them by soldiers who had received “comfort bags” from home.


In the latter part of 1943 the Army issued orders that certain girls who had paid their debt could return home. Some of the girls were thus allowed to return to Korea.


The interrogations further show that the health of these girls was good. They were well supplied with all types of contraceptives, and often soldiers would bring their own which had been supplied by the army. They were well trained in looking after both themselves and customers in the matter of hygiene. A regular Japanese Army doctor visited the houses once a week and any girl found diseased was given treatment, secluded, and eventually sent to a hospital. This same procedure was carried on within the ranks of the Army itself, but it is interesting to note that a soldier did not lose pay during the period he was confined.


The average Japanese soldier is embarrassed about being seen in a “comfort house” according to one of the girls who said, “when the place is packed he is apt to be ashamed if he has to wait in line for his turn”. However there were numerous instances of proposals of marriage and in certain cases marriages actually took place.


(As I said, it does not follow that the practice was similar everywhere, nonetheless, it does not follow either this was a exceptional case.)


After 50 years when researchers says comfort women faintly remember, or contain contradiction.
In the interview with a reporter from Korean times




“The Japanese killed a Korean woman and boiled her flesh in a big pot,” said a former North Korean comfort woman in an interview.


It is true that there was a cannibalism by Japanese soldiers during WWⅡ.


Cannibalism by necessity

…. It has been claimed that cannibalism was practised by Japanese troops as recently as WWII in the Pacific theater…..Maj. Matoba, Gen. Tachibana, Adm. Mori, Capt. Yoshii and Dr. Teraki) were found guilty and hangedwiki


However, in general ,there had been no practice of eating animal meat in Japan until around Meiji Restoration(1868-1889) Dog shougun Tsunayoshi even gave a death sentence to those who just harmed a dog.




China


Descriptions of cannibalism appear repeatedly in Chinese history, in numerous historical writings and literature, and most recently during the Cultural Revolution.

link


Korea


Dog soup is a popular dish in South Korea,


BBC
Partly because of the difference in dietary practice, when people read the line “The Japanese killed a Korean woman and boiled her flesh in a big pot,”Japanese tend to think this comfort woman’s story as an example of a fake story,(I for one don’t see why Japanese boil human meat when there is no necessity like starvation) Chinese and Koreans tend to consider it as as example of true story.
Of course, it does not follow that her story is fake. It is just that it needs a further examination.





But let me point out one thing that seems strange.

.




When the topic is about a traditional Korean comfort women, ethnic Koreans try to focus on comfort women by Japanese troop during WWⅡ,ignoring the story like modern day comfort women

It seems all they are trying to say is Japan did worse,


Every one here admit there were comfort stations that Japanese government indirectly involved with, and every one agree that they are not justified. Japanese government apologized and set up funds for them.

However, it seems that,some of commentators, probably mostly ethnic Koreans, want to say that comfort women during WWⅡ was uniquely evil,for which there is no comparison,ignoring the US report that says “A “comfort girl” is nothing more than a prostitute or “professional camp follower” attached to the Japanese Army for the benefit of the soldiers.”


I am curious what motivate them to do that? What motivates them to focus on evil aspects of Japan for which Japanese government apologized when we are talking about evil practice of Korea?

It looks very strange for the outsiders that when it comes to modern day Korean comfort women in Korea and in China, they keep silence just as Korean government keep silence.













    wjk


    August 17th, 2006 at 15:08 | #1


    Reply | Quote



    Ponta, Matt, has it ever come across you two, that according to that US military report, these Comfort Women were perhaps the best treated prostitutes in the history of warfare in mankind? Ugly, uneducated, voluntary prostitues who lived in no material need during war time. Foreign women, too. They weren’t even Japanese ! Oh, my God, if I were a girl, I would have volunteered too !


    I came to the private conclusion that the US military report was made by asking a Japanese military officer to provide translation.


    There is so much disparity between the US military report and what the present day Comfort Women claim. A disparity that shockingly parallels what a Japanese official says versus what a Comfort Woman says. Oh, goodness ! How could that be ?


    Did some dishonest, Japanese military officer, who was interrogated by a US military official spew out lies ? And why not? There’s a Korean speaking local, other than a Japanese military official in Burma during WWII at a Japanese military camp? Wow. There must have been ! There’s a Chinese speaking local, other than a Japanese military official in Burma during WWII at a Japanese military camp? Wow. Surely. I believe. If I was a Japanese military official, I would spew out lies, too. Hell, they buried medical experiments in Japan itself, so the Americans wouldn’t make trouble about it.


    Perhaps this Japanese military official was very fluent in English, like






    this best damn general on Iwo Jima.


    And, please, you keep referring to the pimp tactics of South Korean brothels in the US or in South Korea, but as I understand it, this is a universal tactic used not only in South Korea, but also in China, the US (by white and black Americans, too. I read a story about Marlon Shirley in Sports Illustrated, and his white mother was tied to the same debt strategy in the USA), Europe, Mexico (this debt tactic is also used for transporation fees from Mexico to the US), Latin America, Russia, Thailand, Vietnam, basically all over the world. Stop passing off this debt tactic as something inherently Korean.


    And, I never said anything bad about the US. I don’t hate the US, unlike what someone generously stereo typed me as. I actually like the US influence over South Korea, very much.


    I can’t say I like the Japanese government very much, but I don’t hate all Japanese people.




    The world is not very simple to wjk, and all of US and all of Japan isn’t equal to evil to wjk’s mind.






    wjk


    August 17th, 2006 at 15:10 | #2


    Reply | Quote



    I didn’t intend all the text after “best damn general” to be hyperlinked. That’s a mistake. Sorry.






    ponta


    August 17th, 2006 at 16:17 | #3


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    wJk

    You are wrong.

    In Burma’s report, Korean prostitutes were interrogated by Japanese American.(Nisei. Alex Yorichi) When they were captured, there were no Japanese soldiers.Just two Japanese brothel owners and 20 Korean prostitutes.

    I don’t understand why you want to believe testimonies more than 40 years later than testimonis which were done just after they were captured.(I am not saying the former testimonis are completely false).


    All you are trying to say is,in your understanding back up with your imagination,Japan did worse, and where Korea did the wrongs, other countries do the same.


    Are you saying, after reading this and this, Korean sex slaves are given ” a normal life of a prostitute who receives money in exchange for sex.”?


    I wonder why ethnic Koreans’ search engine does not work when it comes to Korean tradition of prostitutes, while they search for the articles on the net as if their life depends on it when it comes to the wrongs Japan had done.


    wjk

    Japan admitted Japan has done wrongs.Japan apologized apan compensated.

    Korea has not admitted she has done wrong to its people.She has never apologized.

    Where is the passion by which Korean people protest against Japan and USA?


    Sadly it seems the culture of hate, hatred against Japan (and USA) unites people in Korea.It unites South Korea and North Korea.It unites native Koreans and some ethnic Koreans.(let me emphasize there are many ethnic Koreans who are free from it),It is produced and reproduced through the generations, across the countries. But at the same time,it seems their hatred overrides their love for their fellow Koreans. It turns blind eye on Korean victims in North Korea,South Korean victims of abductions by North Korea,Korean victims of Korean pimps.






    GarlicBreath


    August 17th, 2006 at 20:54 | #4


    Reply | Quote



    Ponta, interesting comments. Thanks!


    Many Koreans simply cannot understand that a Japanese American is American first. Koreans, especially Korean “Americans” think of them self as Korean first. Alex Yorichi, died a few years ago in Tacoma USA I think. He served his country. The Japanese Americans who faught in WW11 were decorated heros. However, only about 100 Koreans faught for the allies during WW11. In the Korean war the Koreans were well known for ‘bugging out’or running and leaving your buddies to die at the first sigh of danger. If you wanted to know where the front line was all you had to do is go the opposite direction of the running Koreans. This does not mean all Koreans were cowards, this was just a common event during the Korean war.


    Based on the differences between Koreans and Japanese espcially when you consiter people like Alex Yorichi, I doubt WKJ can understand Alex’s loyalty to the USA.






    wjk


    August 17th, 2006 at 22:16 | #5


    Reply | Quote



    Alex Yorichi, in my opinion, wrote up some questionable journalistic material with keeping in mind that he had Japanese parents.


    These were the best treated prostitutes in the history of mankind, then.


    Why protest? No other group of prostitutes in the history of mankind enjoyed such war time luxury nor have they asked for a government to compensate them.


    Such huge differences in the accounts of how things went down. Are the few Dutch women who served as comfort women in Indonesia lying, too? Why were they compensated? Why aren’t they longing for their Japanese war boys, who treated so well? Surely, they volunteered, too. And during the war, they enjoyed no thirst, no hunger, and even had perfume and pretty dresses. Alex Yorichi must be more believable than those Dutch women, as well.


    Koreans were known for running away from the Korean War, heh? Which country’s Civil War didn’t have deserters? At least the Koreans kept up their end of South Korea (with enormous US help, but still there was enough who wanted Democracy and that’s the key). It had more to do with buying into Democracy vs Communism. The upper social class who were anti-Communism were mostly Yangbans who did well even in the Japanese colonial period. Scarcely any Yangbans actually served to fight in the war. That’s probably why the lower class who were forced to fight on both sides deserted. There were deserters abounding in the US Civil War as well. You want to dig up dirt? Why were there so many deserters in the US Civil War? Were they genetically and ethnically cowards? Stop your nonsense. What about the Vietnamese? You got crap to say about their ethnic and national courage, too?


    Garlic Breathe, your statement about Japanese Americans thinking of themselves as American first is off and unfair and flat out wrong. It’s not that Japanese people are genetically or ethnically more prone to feel American, if they have American citizenship, alright? 3rd,4th, 5th generation American citizen of any background considers themselves more American than their genetic backgrounds. Any background.


    What do you have to say about Mexican Americans waving Mexican flags in America? The 3rd, 4th, 5th generation Mexican Americans don’t do this. You’re full of a kind eye toward the Japanese.


    There weren’t as many Korean Americans in WWII America to begin with, and most of the Japanese Americans in WWII America were in the war to prove something. Loyalty.


    There are way more Korean Americans in the US who only go back from themselves of their parents. A few go back to their grandparents having landed in the US first, and precious few go back to 4th, 5th or even 6th generations like the Japanese.






    ponta


    August 18th, 2006 at 00:22 | #6


    Reply | Quote



    wjk


    Why protest? No other group of prostitutes in the history of mankind enjoyed such war time luxury nor have they asked for a government to compensate them.


    First, comfort women protesting in front of Japanese embassy were paid for protesting.


    Second, do you think they enjoyed their life being prostitutes?.

    Well you are the one who believe a Korean prostitutes are given ” a normal life of a prostitute who receives money in exchange for sex.”, it is no strange that you think the Korean prostitutes in Burma were happy.But I think you are mistaken. Most of them were sold,and they were from poor family.They led miserable life whatever the circumstance.


    Third Korean government asked women to stand up,promising that their honour would be restored..The former comfort women complained that the promise was not kept.


    Fourth Japanese lawyers went Indonesia. They announced to compensate to the former comfort women.The rumor spread that they would get a big amount of money.22000 women claimed that they were the former comfort women:There were only 20000 Japanese soldiers in Indonesia at that time.

    I am sure if Korean government promised to compensate to the Korean victims of korean pimps after WWⅡ, a huge number of Korean women would come out.


    Are the few Dutch women who served as comfort women in Indonesia lying, too? Why were they compensated?


    Dutch women were released once japanese headquarter knew they were abducted.They were compensated because the injustice was done to them.


    (Make no mistake. I am not saying there were no cases where the rape is involved.In war time,sadly there always is.And I am sorry for the victims.)


    It is clear now that you know little about comfort women.you believe what you want to believe out of the hatred you were nurtured to hold.Isn’t is sad you have no compassion for Korean prostitutes?. Isn ‘t is sad you have little understanding on how the korean women from poor famliy had to choose to, or be led to become prostitutes.?


    I am a bit disappointed at your reaction.I think Korean women who were deceived and forced by Korean pimps,Korean government were also disappointed .All you have commented about tradition of Korean comfort women from 500 years ago to the present is ” Japan was worse ,look at iwojima, and japanese imperialist was bad”. Incidentally I also think Japanese Imperial army was a mad machine.But what does that have to do with the topic of this thread?I think your mentality is similar to President Roh’s:As long as japan is blamed,Koreans feel so happythat they ignore the injustice in peninsula..Apology is never good enough.because once Koreans accept the apology, they can not blame Japan anymoreーーーVery unfortunate.


    GarlicBreath

    Oh is Alex a famous Japanese American?, I did not know.

    I respect Japanese Americans’ loyalty to USA.I am proud of them.At the same time I can not help but feel how important the relation between two countries for ethnic Japanese abroad.






    bad_moon_rising


    August 18th, 2006 at 01:04 | #7


    Reply | Quote



    Whether during the time of King Sejong, WWII, or in the present, Koreans continue to prostitute themselves “on the frontier.” Koreans have taken to exporting prostitutes like fish to water. Here is the latest news from the United States concerning Korean sex slaves. Yes sir, genuine Korean sex slaves right here in the good ol’ USA.


    Korean sex slave ring busted


    A sex trafficking ring that smuggled South Korean women into the United States to work as prostitutes in cities down the east coast has been cracked and 31 people arrested, officials said yesterday.


    Twenty brothels posing as legitimate businesses from Connecticut to North Carolina were shut down, said U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials.


    The arrests Tuesday capped a 15-month probe that began when a Korean couple who owned and operated a chain of brothels in Queens tried to bribe an undercover New York Police Department detective, said an official.


    Prostitution is always a miserable business whether it happened during WWII or happens today.


    “Human traffickers profit by turning dreams into nightmares. These women sought a better life in America and found instead forced prostitution and misery,” U.S. Attorney Michael Garcia told a news conference.


    The typical Korean attitutde is: It’s only Koreans forcing Koreans into prostitution. Nothing to see here. Move on folks. If Koreans truly believe that forced prostitution is bad why don’t they speak out against the forced prostitution that is happening now? The sad fact is Koreans don’t really care about other Koreans unless the other Korean happens to have been a victim at the hands of the Japanese. It’s all about Japan. Let’s say a Korean man is walking along and he overhears a conversation. Why, the very mention of the word “Ilbon” would stop a Korean in mid step!


    If there are so many Korean women being forced into prostitution now, when South Korea’s economy is doing much better than it ever has since WWII, why is it so difficult to believe that the same motives and methods used to lure women now weren’t used successfully back then by Koreans. Why would the Japanese military resort to kidnappings and abductions when they could just pay Koreans to procure women for them. If Korean women are being scammed today by fellow Koreans, even at a time when information about Koreans being forced into prostitution is all over the internet and Korea is one of the most “wired” nations in the world, what chance would the Korean woman of WWII have had against fellow Koreans trying to scam them. The sad fact is Koreans have always sold out Koreans to the highest bidder and will continue to do so.






    Two Cents


    August 18th, 2006 at 05:48 | #8


    Reply | Quote



    wkj,

    Are you aware of how women who catered to the enemy are treated after a war? If you are not, I suggest you do a Google search with “French collaborator women shaved heads.” I can imagine that a Dutch woman would have good reasons to lie had she slept with a Japanese soldier during WWII in Indonesia. If sleeping with the enemy was considered bad, how bad could sleeping with the yellow barbarian enemies be? Crying rape, unfortunately, is the surest way to absolving yourself. I hope that for their sake, that the women are not lying. Men have been executed based on their accusations.


    Rudy Kousbroek writes in his book published in 1992, Het Oostindisch Kampsyndroom, that the Dutchmen from the former West Indies still suffer from the irrational victim mentality and cling to the wartime propaganda that the Japanese could never be anything but evil, and while they repeatedly demand official apologies from the Japanese government, any offered are dismissed as being insincere. (Kind of reminds you of the Koreans, doesn’t it?) Himself being a Dutchman interned by the Japanese in Indonesia, he is extremely harsh on his fellowmen and even goes so far as to say “Hundreds of books have been written about the Japanese years. Most of them are ‘not the truth.’” Sadly, people will lie to save themselves, and in time, many come to believe in their own lies in order to clear their conscience. Look at how most Japanese newspapers now claim that the Japanese were brainwashed and forced into war by the military when they were the ones mostly responsible for pumpng up public sentiments against the US. NONE have ever made a detailed investigation into their own roles in the war effort, and yet they demand the public to reflect truthfully on the past.


    Atrocious acts were most likely made by the Imperial Japanese Army, and probably on levels that would shock anybody sitting peacefully in front of a computer now. Kousbroek writes that, during the war, the Japanese distributed handbills around the camp claiming that US soldiers were taking skulls of Japanese soldiers home as souvenirs. He assumed it was simply propaganda and was shocked after the war when he saw the cover of the Life magazine. I can’t imagine an American soldier committing such acts now or a prestigious magazine using such a photo on its cover (unless its to hamper the war efforts), so by the same reasoning I am willing to bet that some unbelievably cruel acts have been committed by the Japanese that would be inconceivable to us today. But I really don’t believe they should be used for political wars now, 60 years after the war, when the facts cannot be confirmed either way.






    Sonagi


    August 18th, 2006 at 06:54 | #9


    Reply | Quote




    I hope that for their sake, that the women are not lying. Men have been executed based on their accusations.


    Can you support this with documented examples of Japanese soldiers who were executed for raping Dutch women?






    wjk


    August 18th, 2006 at 10:29 | #10


    Reply | Quote



    Ponta, you never cease to go the extra yard and add onto my words. Words I have never said. Your English teacher must have loved you for reading into things that aren’t even there.


    Think whatever you like.


    For one thing, I am a clearly anti Roh Moo Hyun person. Get that straight.


    You clearly have the shades of the Rising Sun covering your eyes.


    Two Cents, at least the French/Dutch/Norweigians have good things to say about the former German love boys and even try to find the fathers for their half German progeny. No such parallels for the Japanese war boys. Maybe they were all sterile Japanese war boys. Yup, that must be the explanation. I think you, too, are viewing the Japanese war boys in the best possible light possible.


    Sonagi, I don’t think any Japanese soldiers were executed for raping Dutch women.






    ponta


    August 18th, 2006 at 10:51 | #11


    Reply | Quote



    WJK

    I just quoted what you said.

    You have not proved you are anti-korean pimps traditions.

    All you said was every other countries do the same.


    Just show us that you are anti-korean pimps traditions.

    All I am asking is to show your passion for the justice to be done over Korean victims by Korean pimps and Korean government just as Korean people have shown when they were protesting against Japan and USA.

    You have shown none.Instead you are listing the wrongs Japan had done more than 60 years ago,just like kimsoft.


    You want to think that you are anti-Roh,but in fact your mentality is exactly like Roh’s.Blame Japan, then, Koreans are so happy that they ignore the injustice in peninsula. Koreans never accept apology because that make it impossible for them to blame Japan anymore.

    You want to think Japan was evil and Japan evaded the responsibility, but has it never occur to you that ,in fact, that is Korean society projected into Japan?.






    wjk


    August 18th, 2006 at 11:51 | #12


    Reply | Quote



    Ponta, I am against all forms of prostitution. I am also against Korean pimp traditions that may be unique to Korea. I don’t even support legalized prostitution.


    Although, I don’t think the Chinese, the Thai, the Mexican, or even the White US American pimps were taught by Koreans how to lure women by advertising for easy money, and then raping them, putting them in debt, and then cycling them for prostitution. You do know that even in the US, there are illegal US American pimp rings, who lure teenage white women who dropped out of high school into the same strategy of prostitution, right? They do the same thing. Rape, debt, shame, and cycle. It’s not at all invented by Koreans nor unique to Korea. But whatever may be unique to Korea, I am also against that, too. If you don’t believe me about US pimp rings, do a google search with Atlanta, prostitution, CNN. It was a headline news item last year. It was quite sickening. These US men from the East Coast would fly down to Atlanta to have sex with teenage white girls, who were supposedly perceived to be young and STD free. Sadly for them, they don’t understand biology, and that they probably got whatever STDs other men were carrying with them.


    No one’s gonna die because they don’t have sex with a prostitute. It should be banned. It should not even be legalized under the stance that it will protect more women in the bigger scope.


    Yes, Koreans hate Japan, but I think they have their reasons. It’s my private belief, but I don’t think they are unreasonably willng to hate forever. I think it’s fueled by certain selected number of Japanese citizens.


    I don’t think you quoted me, but whatever. But, more importantly,


    Kimsoft, Young S. Kim, still makes posts? I have been quite concerned of his health, since he stopped updating his webpage at least since last year.


    Is Dr. Kim doing well? Thank you.






    ponta


    August 18th, 2006 at 12:58 | #13


    Reply | Quote



    wjk

    thanks.

    that is partly what I wanted to hear from you.I appreciate it.

    But what about a Korean pimps tradition bashing festival like Japan USA bashing?

    How about setting up hundreds of sites revealing Korean pimps traditions?

    How about collecting testimonies without checking who they are,if they are right?

    How about demonstration in front of the blue house?

    How about resolution at UN to compensate?

    How about stating the past Korean evil acts that is not relevant to the topic?

    …………………….etc.

    Those are how passionate Korean people have done.


    I for one do not think some of these are necessary. We can talk calmly and we can approach this issue in view of saving the victims without fueling antagonism,

    Do you also think these methods are not necessary?

    If so, why it is okay when it comes to Japan and USA bashing?

    I appreciate if you could give me the reply.


    Yes, Koreans hate Japan, but I think they have their reasons. It’s my private belief, but I don’t think they are unreasonably willng to hate forever. I think it’s fueled by certain selected number of Japanese citizens.


    That is their decision.Japan aplogize to Korea.Japan has compensated to Korea.

    Every one has his/her reason to hate something.Some are willing to pick up reasons to hate.Others create reson to hate.Other will not accept apology in order to keep hating..Still others dig up the past to hate more.Still others educated kids to hate. If the hatred come to this extent, it is a culture,the culture of hatred.

    North (and some south) koreans hate USA.they have their reason to hate.they will probably never give up hating USA.If they love hating,that is their decision.It is not my bussiness.


    If those educated in the West who love Korea give them a good advise,I think they will change.

    I think it is time to go on.






    wjk


    August 18th, 2006 at 14:39 | #14


    Reply | Quote



    Ponta, nice talking to you. I’m leaving for the weekend for a trip. You do have a good point.


    If I must say something, bashing foreign countries is not a unique Korean problem. Plus, it might even be called civilized compared to the middle east.






    Two Cents


    August 18th, 2006 at 15:11 | #15


    Reply | Quote



    Sonagi,

    The man executed as the war criminal for the charge was Yoshiharu Okada. (Maybe Keiji Okada, I’m not sure how to read the kanji.) He was found guilty for kidnapping, forcing prostitution, and rape of Dutch women at Semarang and exectued by the Dutch.


    Okada seemed to have been ordered by his superior to set up a officers’ club, and so he asked Governor Miyano of Sumerang to have some Indonesians working under him to recruit some women. The day before the club opened, he visits the women for the first time to see how everything is, and reports to a visiting general staff that, “They are so cheerful and young that I’m worried some of our men might fall in love and commit suicide together.” The facility was closed down after the General Staff Yamamoto hears that the women were taken by force. (There is also testimony that the faciltiy was simply shut down because business was not good and it had to be restarted using non-white women.) Of the 35 women at the officer’s club, 25 were found to have been forced into prostitution, but the tribunal could not make clear who had been responsible for the actual forcing since the local Indonesian officials were never called in as witness, and find Okada guilty on the basis that Okada should have known no (or only a few) women would willingly become prostitutes, so his orders for recruitment was equivalent to ordering a kidnapping. Okada writes in his diary, “I have treated them so well, and yet they are now accusing me with blatant lies. Alas, I imagine they must do so now that the tides have turned and they cannot claim to have cooperated with us. I see I have been made the mastermind. I have nothing more to say. My hands have been bitten by the dogs I have fed.” (I believe the dogs refer to the Japanese owners of the clubs and not the women.)


    The man who ordered Okada, Asao Okubo, comminted suicide in Japan after receiving the notification of detainment, and was never tried. Another man, Shozo Ikeda was sentenced to 15 years in prison, although he was on an official trip to Tokyo at the time of the crime. Nine others were sentenced to 2 to 20 years in prison, including the owners of the club


    The information above is a collection from Hata’s book, 『戦争裁判の実相』(巣鴨法務委員会編), and 『尋問・拷問・処刑;戦犯の悲劇の記録』(川野京輔、秋田書店), (I am still searching for the latter two books). I’m withholding my decision until the full records of the trials are released from the Dutch archives. But then again, I might not be able to make up my mind even then.


    wjk,

    Don’t you think the 30-million-plus condoms passed out each year by the military to the comfort houses just might have helped suppress the number of unwanted pregnancies?






    empraptor


    August 18th, 2006 at 15:29 | #16


    Reply | Quote



    I will read other comments later and get a feel for replies to my question, but I find comment from Two Cents reasonable.






    GarlicBreath


    August 19th, 2006 at 05:47 | #17


    Reply | Quote



    A quick look at the headlines and I saw that Korea was up to its old tricks again by sending ugly prostitues abroad.


    http://www.news14charlotte.com/content/local_news/?AC=&ArID=125267&SecID=2


    I am willing to bet, these same women will be forever suing the USA and blaming the USA for their situation. Future Roh moo hyuns will be blaming the USA and his followers, people like WJK, will gleefully burn US flags.






    Sonagi


    August 23rd, 2006 at 17:19 | #18


    Reply | Quote



    Two Cents,


    Thanks for sharing the story about the one Japanese soldier who was executed after being made a scapegoat by Japanese owners of a brothel where a majority of women had been forced into prostitution.






    Two Cents


    August 28th, 2006 at 02:16 | #19


    Reply | Quote



    Sonagi,

    You miss my point.

    What I am saying is that the war tribunals may not have been fair, and the women had reasons to lie about the forced enslavment/prostitution.

    There were plenty of Dutch prostitutes in the Dutch East Indies, who had lost out in their motherland and decided to try their luck in the faraway colony, and I am sure some of them would have chosen to continue their service, instead of being tortured by the unbearable housing conditions at the internment camps, which had formerly been built by the Dutch to house Indonesian laborers. In the Dutch East Indies, 200 Dutch comfort women were found, and 65 were judged to have been forced by the Dutch court. However, I do not know what the criteira for the decision was, since I have not seen the court records. My guess is, that the 235 who were found to have “not been forced” probably already were prostitutes for the Dutch before the Japanese occupation. Will non-professional women “never” choose to become prostitutes ? The Dutch court apparently thought that under no circumstance will a decent Dutch women choose to become a prostitute. Looking at the world today, I find that hard to believe.


    If the institution of comfort women were actually so bad that it should remain a major issue 60 years after the war, I am sure the Allies would have jumped at the opportunity to paint Imperial Japan as black as it possibly could 60 years ago at the war tribunals. The report given by the US Army proves that they knew quite well that the comfort women system was widely established, yet they never seemed to have found it so evil. There were a large number of Koreans in the Japanese army, yet they too, who not only witnesses the Korean comfort women but were also their customers, never seemed to have had any problems with the system back then. You have to wonder why it has become such a big issue so many years after the war, when first-hand evidence has become nearly impossible to access. (Or are you naive enough to believe that the Korean comfort women who are currently wailing their hearts out have the choice to say “I became a prostitute because my Korean family sold me.” They’d be stoned to death by the Korean society or kicked out from the house of former comfort women.)


    Prostitution always comes as a set with stationing of soldiers. In my opinion, bringing in your own women to satisfy the sexual appetite of your troops is a much more considerate system than asking the locals to have their own women do the job, which in most cases involves the local gang. Even today, men do not like to see their “own” women hanging on the arms of foreign men, enemy or ally.






    Sonagi


    August 28th, 2006 at 04:49 | #20


    Reply | Quote




    Two Cents said:


    You miss my point.

    What I am saying is that the war tribunals may not have been fair, and the women had reasons to lie about the forced enslavment/prostitution.


    Two Cents, you asserted earlier:


    I hope that for their sake, that the women are not lying. Men have been executed based on their accusations.


    This was in response to wjk’s comment about Dutch comfort women:


    Are the few Dutch women who served as comfort women in Indonesia lying, too? Why were they compensated?


    I challenged your original quote that Men have been executed based on their (Dutch women’s) accusations. “Men” is plural. It would be more accurate, based on your lone example, to say, “A Japanese soldier was executed based on their accusations.”






    Two Cents


    August 28th, 2006 at 07:17 | #21


    Reply | Quote



    Sorry, my mistake.

    I meant to write, “Men have been executed or imprisoned based on their accusations.”






    ponta


    August 28th, 2006 at 16:04 | #22


    Reply | Quote



    From my point of view, Two cents’ story is another example that Japanese army regulated illegal recruiting, recruiting by force as other evidences so far discovered shows.


    And it seems Two cents’s story does not tell whether Dutch women were really forced by brothel owner ;though, Sonagi seems to presuppose that her story said they were.






    Sonagi


    August 28th, 2006 at 16:52 | #23


    Reply | Quote



    Ponta,


    At times you write like an educated native speaker of English and at other times, you sound very much like a non-native speaker. It’s almost like two people are sitting at the computer taking turns typing in the comment box.


    In a much earlier post, someone commented that it seemed like there were only a few posters using multiple IDs. Matt says he checks IP addresses carefully, but after spending some time reading early threads, I have this irrepressible feeling that there are really only about five individual commentators on this blog. Among all of the multiple personalities, I think I like the mental hospital patient best.


    It’s been fun, Matt. If the Marmot doesn’t clean up the tabloid trash and kick out the trolls, I’ll be dropping his name from my blogroll very soon, so I guess I won’t be sparring with Shakuhachi, Wiesunja, and ??? anymore. (BTW, you and Hans both share the same tastes in Japanese blogs) Missed you at the CA. During your absence someone identifying themselves as PT and commenting under the username PT has been filling in on the Japan-related threads. Matt, you are a multilingual human Wikipedia (I mean that in a nice way) and skillful debater, so I hope to exchange views with you on a future CA thread.






    Matt


    August 28th, 2006 at 17:31 | #24


    Reply | Quote




    Ponta,


    At times you write like an educated native speaker of English and at other times, you sound very much like a non-native speaker. It’s almost like two people are sitting at the computer taking turns typing in the comment box.


    In a much earlier post, someone commented that it seemed like there were only a few posters using multiple IDs. Matt says he checks IP addresses carefully, but after spending some time reading early threads, I have this irrepressible feeling that there are really only about five individual commentators on this blog. Among all of the multiple personalities, I think I like the mental hospital patient best.


    It’s been fun, Matt. If the Marmot doesn’t clean up the tabloid trash and kick out the trolls, I’ll be dropping his name from my blogroll very soon, so I guess I won’t be sparring with Shakuhachi, Wiesunja, and ??? anymore. (BTW, you and Hans both share the same tastes in Japanese blogs) Missed you at the CA. During your absence someone identifying themselves as PT and commenting under the username PT has been filling in on the Japan-related threads. Matt, you are a multilingual human Wikipedia (I mean that in a nice way) and skillful debater, so I hope to exchange views with you on a future CA thread.


    Sonagi, what you wrote there is a little arcane. Are you saying that you have been able to identify people as having multiple IDs? If so, how did you do it? As for Ponta, he is very much a real person. By the way, you have a blog? I have never seen it.






    ponta


    August 28th, 2006 at 17:35 | #25


    Reply | Quote



    Sonagi


    Ponta is one and only one person. And I don’t disguise as another person. In my case I think it is obvious. Nobody can imitate my poor English.


    I am afraid it is very poor criticism, if it is a criticism at all ,that someone is a non-native speaker.


    I feel comfortable here because nobody ridicule my poor English. Matt encourage Japanese people to write even though English is not so good.


    I guess Matt will take care of trolls.


    And if you think I am a troll, please tell me so..


    I just thought you were the kind of person who is informative and intellectual , who can discuss reasonably without using racial slur unlike the one who told me I was a descendant of murderer.


    Thanks






    Sonagi


    August 28th, 2006 at 18:18 | #26


    Reply | Quote



    No, Ponta, I don’t think you are a troll. I like you, GarlicBreath, the mental patient, and every personality on this blog.


    Matt, I don’t have a blog. The blogsphere is a more interesting place with you in it.






    Matt


    August 28th, 2006 at 18:28 | #27


    Reply | Quote




    No, Ponta, I don’t think you are a troll. I like you, GarlicBreath, the mental patient, and every personality on this blog.


    I am still not getting this. Do you mean that all these people are the same person, or have multiple IDs?


    Matt, I don’t have a blog. The blogsphere is a more interesting place with you in it.


    You said you had a blogroll. I took it to mean you have a blog.






    GarlicBreath


    August 28th, 2006 at 20:38 | #28


    Reply | Quote



    Sonagi,


    Sonagi Said:


    August 28, 2006 at 6:18 pm


    No, Ponta, I don’t think you are a troll. I like you, GarlicBreath, the mental patient, and every personality on this blog.


    Matt, I don’t have a blog. The blogsphere is a more interesting place with you in it.


    No blog ?? You sure have a lot of yap for somebody without a blog.


    Maybe its time you made a blog. I understand your internet friend Kushibo/Nora is not using his/hers. Maybe your internet friend Kushibo can give you tips on how to meet Korea guys too.


    As for your comments about me. You are not nice. If you have evidence that I am someone else. Please present it. Otherwise STFUB.






    Matt


    August 28th, 2006 at 21:19 | #29


    Reply | Quote




    No blog ?? You sure have a lot of yap for somebody without a blog.


    Maybe its time you made a blog. I understand your internet friend Kushibo/Nora is not using his/hers. Maybe your internet friend Kushibo can give you tips on how to meet Korea guys too.


    As for your comments about me. You are not nice. If you have evidence that I am someone else. Please present it. Otherwise STFUB.


    GarlicBreath, you need to tone yourself down, seriously. I dont want anyone here being told to STFUB. So tone it down, OK?


    Sonagi, if you want to say something, come right out and say it. We are adults here, and I dont want this to turn into a flame war because you have implied that people here are using multiple IDs. That just baits people like GarlicBreath. So yeah, come right out and say it.






    Errol


    August 28th, 2006 at 21:45 | #30


    Reply | Quote



    I’m just me, as Matt will readily attest.


    But in the interim let’s talk about the last Saturday in September.







    Swans are no chance Matt.






    Errol


    August 28th, 2006 at 21:49 | #31


    Reply | Quote



    The internet is a strange place.






    Matt


    August 28th, 2006 at 21:50 | #32


    Reply | Quote




    I’m just me, as Matt will readily attest.


    But in the interim let’s talk about the last Saturday in September.


    Swans are no chance Matt.


    Sorry, Errol, but I am a Sydneysider. No AFL for me.






    Errol


    August 28th, 2006 at 22:12 | #33


    Reply | Quote



    Sydney? I thought you might have started a discussion on the “torturing” is OK if it’s a terrorism case story.




    The King of Kirribilli’s authoritarian streak showing through. Vale Australia’s concept of a fair go.



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